STOP! This is a Rebuttal. Read Tom's Argument First.
Firstly, kudos to Tom for reproducing my argument rather accurately. Secondly, I would like to clear up that I was joking when I “corrected” Ryan’s pronunciation of ridiculous because we were both saying it the same way. It seems now that there is only one point of disagreement on this issue: Tom believes in “right’s” and “wrong’s” and I do not. It is his choice and opinion to feel there are “right” and “wrong” ways to say things, while mine is that there is standard (formal, informal, general) English, and nonstandard English. At one point Tom felt I was getting too into semantics, and then I reminded him that’s what the issue has been about all along. As I understand the argument, Tom feels that people can pronounce words in several ways, but not names. There is a flaw in his argument because Americans commonly have several pronunciation for names, regardless of how it is typically pronounced. For example, the name Michelangelo is pronounced two different ways (the American way is to add an a to make it sounds like Michael). Neither pronunciation is “right” or “wrong,” but rather one is more correct or standard if you are in Europe and the other more correct or standard in America. Now, Tom might say, well that’s different because you are talking about another country, but it is the same. The names we have in America come from all around the world, so there are no strictly “American” names. When a group of people decide to say a word or name a particular way it becomes the most “correct” or standard pronunciation for their in-group. Yes there are national standards or more acceptable or recognized pronunciations, but that doesn’t mean there are no alternative pronunciations. As for Tom’s examples, his points might be more valid if he used more applicable examples. Larissa’s hometown affected a close pronunciation to Reese’s by saying Reesie’s. To make his point, Tom continually uses example that are too absurd because they don’t follow the rules of the English language. It is absurd that he would pronounce ridiculous as recockulous because the di sound is never replaced with the co sound. Whereas Larissa’s neighborhood substituted the short e sound at the end of Resse for the long e sound. This has and does happen. Tom needs to clean up his examples and make them more applicable for me to consider them part of his argument. Yes we follow rules; the English language is structured and this is what keeps our language intelligible. Yet, to try and stop relatively logical changes from occurring, like the alternate pronunciation of Reese’s, is preposterous. Changes will happen and they aren’t right or wrong, they just are.
38 comments:
I found this debate very interesting when I was discussing it with Brittany and Tom on Saturday. I tried to get to the bottom of the argument, but I was a little confused as to what Brittany and Tom were debating. Let me leave my comments based on what Tom wrote and what I talked to Brittany and Tom about.
I don’t want to talk for Brittany, but the way she described the debate to me I think she was arguing the point that there is no right or wrong way to pronounce words in the sense that it does not change their meaning. For example, if you were to pronounce “Reese’s Peanut Butter Cups” as “Rumplestiltskin” then you would not be pronouncing it wrong? They are still chocolate cups filled with peanut butter. So - in a sense - Brittany is correct.
For what Tom said and what I talked to him about - I agree that there is a right (correct) and wrong (incorrect) way of pronouncing words. As we follow certain rules in writing we also follow certain rules in speaking in the English language. For example we know that certain letters make certain sounds and that many letters represent how to say those sounds together. That is why in the English dictionary there are guides on how to pronounce words, because that is the right or “correct” way to say the word and if you or a group of people choose to say it a different way you are speaking incorrectly, according to what people have deemed the guide to language. (exceptions: for dialects that are recognized and have established rules), but Reesies is not a dialect way of saying Reese’s) Let me use a concrete example:
col•lo•qui•al [kuh-loh-kwee-uh l]: characteristic of or appropriate to ordinary or familiar conversation rather than formal speech or writing; informal.
The pronunciation key in the dictionary tells you how to pronounce a word. There are, however, different dialects and within those dialects there are right and wrong ways to say words according to the English language. You can also pronounce words in different ways as long as they follow the rules of how the English language is spoken and example would be an accent that uses the proper guides on how to say a word, but its tone or rhythm is changed. (Reesies is not an accent either) For the case of proper nouns, such as a person’s name, there is only one way to correctly say it. For example, you would pronounce it Tomas not THomas although it is often spelled Thomas. After all this, I must say that if you pronounce “Reese’s” as “Reesies” you would be pronouncing it incorrectly.
http://www.ed.arizona.edu/celt/fs9.html
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/
I say, in casual communication, let people pronounce things as they will, as long as the meaning is understood. In formal communication, I believe, YES, there is a right or wrong way to pronounce something. There is actually a new Reese commercial out very clearly stating the "formal & correct" way of pronouncing this little piece of heaven's name.
As far as my personal defense...
I have admitted to the world, we OHIOANS are fools, king mispronunciationists, if you will. We defile the name of Mr. Reese!!! I do, however, have it on good Cactus authority that North Carolinians defile the name in a similar fashion. The funny thing is is that none of us noticed we were saying this name "wrong" until the elite pointed it out to us and we all thought, "Huh...we do say it weird." BUT...I don't think anything we say or do at this point is going to change the way our region of Ohio pronounces poor Mr. Reesie's, I mean Reese's, name. Just like I don't think we'll all stop saying "caddycorner" instead of "kittycorner." We grew up that way, it feels safe like home to us, so let the legacy of defiling the Reese name live on!!!!!
There are not two correct ways to pronounce Michelangelo. We as Americns say it a certain way and that's ok because we understand what we are talking about. But we say it incorrectly. I would be very certain he would only accept the Italian version and correct you if you said it the way HE doesn't say it.
Either way I wish I would have known your rule Brittany, because one time at work I called a Mr. Lemongello and said is Mr. Lemon Jello there? In a very stern voice he corrected me and said it's Lamonjallow. I should have told him to kiss my colloqualism and pay me the money you owe us.
I feel like Tom and Pete are still misunderstanding what I have said. I also feel that Tom has not been listening or remembering everything I have said. All along I have been saying that there are more standard ways of saying things in formal situations, especially in writing. There are rules and our language IS structured. Yet, Tom and Pete are both using absurd examples to try and mock my explanation that you can pronounce words or names several ways. The pronunciation of "Reese's" would not logically be pronounced "Rumpelstiltskin" as Peter has strangely claimed. Where are these ridiculous examples coming from? I have all ready said that Larissa's neighborhood did not completely change the word "Reese's," but they merely changed the last "e" sound. This is logical and permissible in our glorious language. Also, Ryan is correct in pointing out that dictionaries recognize there are standard pronunciations for all words (names or not) but there are also non-standard pronunciations that are listed in the dictionary because scholars recognize there are many ways to pronounce a word. I think Tom has muddled Pete's mind with all of his misguided certainties. This whole argument boils down to the fact that Tom cannot accept that there are not always "right's" and "wrong's" when pronouncing words. He has his opinion and I have mine. I understand his argument and see the flaws, but I find no flaws in my own. I have been careful in how I have stated my view and have refrained from absurd examples to help all of you understand this “Reese's” debate. If Tom cannot accept that we have differing opinions (and they are both okay), it is only because he wishes to persuade me or prove me wrong rather than hear what I am saying.
You, Thomas, were mocking Mr. Lemongello, not using a recognized local standard of pronunciation. Nice try though. And I doubt Michelangelo would have corrected anyone who pronounced his name the American way because it would have been rude, ignorant, and small-minded of him to not recognize that different peoples pronounce things differently.
I am concerned that people are calling this an interesting debate, it's simply foolishness and poppycock. This hits close to home for me since my beloved wife and son pronounce Reeses Reesies. When Karine was pregnant with Caleb she sent me to the store for Reesies I spent a long time looking for the elusive Reesies only to be told time and time again that no such product existed. I returned home and was met with disappointment and heartache that this candy did not exist any longer. the next day a Reeses was sitting on the counter and Karine told me the store was wrong. Well since this time I have dedicated my life to helping people avoid confusion and embarrassment like this. let us not forget the woman who came to Taco Bell asking for fa-gee-tus only to be scorned and mocked for mispronouncing the word fajita. I have consulted an expert on the English language and she has informed me that when it comes to names all rules go out the window. So I would say that appealing to rules is useless and irrelevant. Very few people pronounce Karine's name correctly often they pronounce it ka-rin which is not how it is pronounced no matter how other people feel about it they simply do not know the correct pronunciation therefore they ignorantly mispronounce her name. words are governed by rules and rarely the rules leave room for multiple pronuciations, Pete's use of the pronuciation key points to the fact that there is a way that words are intended to be pronounced. If people choose to create their own pronunciation that is fine, but doesn't make it correct. just watch a spelling bee such as the one annually televised on ESPN, they give the correct pronuciations of words so as to avoid confusion and in the case of a word with multiple pronuciations they give them, however this is meaningless since names do not apply to these words. There is only one correct way to pronounce someone's name and that is the way they pronounce it. So I would ask how do the owners of the name Reeses pronounce it? It is common knowledge to everyone that has ever seen a Reeses commercial that it is pronounced Reeses not Reesies, they own the name and have made the pronunciation clear. In regards to Brittany's statement that she does not believe in wrong and right, i hope you don't actually hold such an opinion or if you do you only apply it to pronuciations, because this would lead to a much greater discussion. (the story about the Reeses candy for karine is untrue, and only her family from brazil pronounce her name correctly, however she accepts multiple pronuciations)
I must thank Peter for putting up both those websites that prove my point further, thanks!
How dare you question my morals, Phil. I challenge you to a duel!
The trouble is people are still talking about their opinions as if they were the only acceptable opinion. I allow my name to be pronounced many ways, as do many other people. This proves not everyone agrees (or cares) that there is only one right way to say their own name. I would not mock or correct anyone for pronouncing my name in a different way than I normally would. I suppose I am a more forgiving, accepting, loving, generous, kind, open-minded, considerate, amiable, benevolent, lenient, understanding, tolerant, humane, courteous, charitable, civilized, compassionate, congenial, tender, peaceful, and patient than Baldemort.
Brittany, if somone introduces themselves you try to say their name the way they said it correct? the first day of class teachers always try to get the pronunciation of a person's name correct, often the student corrects the teacher if he says it wrong and says something like but it's no big deal. if someone named daniel introduced themselves to me as dane-yell i may think that is odd but that is how they pronounce it thus making it the correct way to pronounce their name, not all daniels just them. perhaps somewhere in the world there is a person named Reese pronounced Reesie, but the owner of the name Reeses has introduced themselves to us with the pronunciation Reeses not Reesies like it or not in this case it is the only correct way that they have established. i am not challenging your morales, i'm just wondering what your statement applied to- i assumed it was only pronunciations but wanted clarification
I am aware that the commercials tell viewers the preferred way to pronounce Reese's, but this still does not mean that it is wrong to say it another way. I am certain that the company only wants sales and would not care how someone pronounced their product as long as it was purchased. As to you other point of student's correcting teachers, you said yourself "often" not "always." Point proven.
i feel like i am in bizzaro world. i agree that there is not one uniformed way to pronounce a name, but surely you must agree that the pronunciation is determined by the owner of the name and their preference. so if Reeses pronounces their name Reeses that is correct we can not change it because we want, if there is someone else with the same name they can pronounce their own name Reesies and so can everyone else, but it would be incorrect if they applied their pronunciation to someone else. It seems very clear clut and simple the only pronunciaiton for the candy name Reeses is Reeses.
I can sit quietly no longer. I see people running around in circles, and it is only funny for so long.
We should all be able to agree with the following points:
-The Reese's candy company has advertised their candy with a specific pronunciation (Reeses). Let's call this the "original" pronunciation
-An alternative pronunciation (Reesies) has surfaced and become the norm in some locales.
-Regardless of the philosophical debate about whether we can or should label language use as "right" or "wrong," clearly there are alternate forms of words, pronunciation, and grammar which become acceptable in common use.
Most of the other things being debated seem to detract from the actual questions at hand.These are the only questions that I see as being relevant/debatable:
-Is it ok for people to perpetuate an alternative pronunciation of a brand-name, which clearly isn't the original pronunciation?
-Is it ok to correct those who use the alternative pronunciation and tell them they should be using the original pronunciation?
-Is it ok for Chris to shave his arm hair against the desperate wishes and pleas of his wife?
As an objective observer I can provide an unbiased opinion on the matter. First, I believe that Lord Baldemort is bald. I think we can all agree on that. Building on that foundation, we can now move forward. There are two camps on the matter: the ‘right ways’ and the ‘standard ways.’ It is foolishness for Tom to say that the ‘right ways’ camp is the right way since it is only a belief. He can say he thinks his way makes more sense, but he can’t say that his way is fact because there is clearly a debate on the matter. After saying that, I must admit that I also agree that there are correct and incorrect ways to pronounce words. I think this is especially true regarding names, but I recognize that there are other beliefs.
The original argument is whether you pronounce the word Reese’s or Reesies. Obviously it is Reese’s. I think that is clear when you consider that marketers were probably playing on the word ‘pieces,’ not ‘peeces.’ As a tribute to both camps, I pose the following question: Is this topic over? (correct way) Me foot shut blabber nipple on my ting Chung while he plipped her jump a baby¡ (standard) Let’s just stick to good old fashion English.
Regarding shaving my arm, this should be accepted. I just saw an ad in the local paper for a “back, crack, and sac wax.” I wish I were joking, but this is absolutely true. Things could be worse.
first of all I never said these people can't say Reesie's. Clearly they do say it and we know what they're talking about. The original argument is, can they say Reesie's and have it be correct. That's all we want to know. Brittany keeps using smoke and mirrors to make her point. Forget all this extra nonsense and answer the original question. Brittany and Ryan keep discrediting everyone's points. If this many people agree with me, there must be something to my argument. As far as teachers correcting kids in school, I agree it's terrible. I remember some kids being hauled away to secret rooms and taking speech classes. The teachers made them conform to a right (standard) way of pronuniation. Indeed a sad memory for me.
PS The story of Lemongello was not mockery. I think you remembered the story wrong. Seriously, I wasn't making fun of him. I didn't know how to say his name
I agree that there is a standard way to say a product name such as "Reese's", and I do believe the standard way is "Reese's" not "Reesie's." But I will not use the word "correct" because of it's connotations. Yes, there is validity to your argument. Have I not all ready said that there are some people (even experts) who believe in the "right" and "wrong" and you are free to agree with them. I am merely exercising my right to disagree with you, but you won't seem to let the matter end. As for me, it is over, and has been over since the first time this debate surfaced.
PS I am not using smoke and mirrors; those are called big words and clear arguments.
I will deffinelty say I was NOT maiking fun of Larissa. As noted in my blog, it's something I tease her about. Just as everyone has things they tease spouses, girlfriends or boyfriends. You can ask her, she's never felt attacked or humiliated (until this was published on the blog, jk). Things only got heated between myself and Brittany when going further into the debate. I never disagreed that some words can't be pronounced with different meanings. I kept using the example epoch or said epich. Even in my blog I agreed with that point. My point was and always will be some words have one correct pronunciaton, no more, no less. I know Brittany will not agree with the wording "right" or "wrong." That's ok, this is how the debate will end. I just felt you guys were debating down to me and and not with me. I wanted you guys to see others would agree or understand what I was saying, and to see my points were not as foolish as you were making them out to be. Everyone is tired of this topic so we shall move on. Brittany I do remember you saying when the conversation surfaced that it was over for you. But here we are, one blog rebuttle and several posted comments later :)
So this shall be the end thereof
Phil, I knew you would take offense to the use of jk and my smilely face. Things are already getting heated enough. I just want it to be clear when something is not serious as it was obviously already misunderstood that I was only teasing Larissa. If only it was common practice to add a JK during speaking perhaps this whole mess could have been avoided
Let me conclude my comments by saying I am "right" reesies pronouncers are "wrong". names don't have the same rules words do, they are pronounced one way correctly and that is the way the owner of the name pronounces it. we don't need to mock people who mispronounce names only lovingly correct the error. I would like to point out that I have read something disturbing in someone's comments and that is Tom's use of JK- what an embarrassment it had me lol, kjdoi, lspe, as far a chris shaving his arms, i think it is completely appropriate since i don't know of any other pixies with arm hair, it is probably humiliating for him.
Chris should not shave his arm hair. As an understanding wife, I can only imagine the pain that Nancy must suffer as Chris's cactus prickles scrape across her sensitive skin each day. This is unacceptable. Chris should follow in General Cactus's lead and laser off the embarrassing hair.
Chris should not shave his arm hair. As an understanding wife, I can only imagine the pain that Nancy must suffer as Chris's cactus prickles scrape across her sensitive skin each day. This is unacceptable. Chris should follow in General Cactus's lead and laser off the embarrassing hair.
whoa bug out my comment posted twice!
I feel so humiliated and degraded! This little Reesie's tease was once a private thing between Tom and I that has now been flashed in front of the world! How embarrassing!
Ok, so I'm really just entirely amused and would like to take a moment and accept the honor that has fallen upon my shoulders - that of sparking the greatest debate on the Clark family blog to date!
On to more important topics, I hate to say this, but I support any form of hair removal - be it laser or razor. However, I don't have to be prickled by any at night, so I go entirely on aesthetics, not feeling as Nancy and Brittany. I might change my support if that were the situation.
Yes, we can always come back to, in any argument, the one thing we all agree on - Baldemort is bald. I would also like to submit for support the fact that that Baldemort cannot spell. I have witnessed this atrocity over and over again in these blog entries and the massacre of innocent words must stop:-)
let any female that has never allowed her leg hair to grow a few days and prick her husband be the first to complain. and spelling doesn't count on blogs and emails.
Who cares about the Reeses thing this is a dumb argument. I am amazed that everyone is trying to put Tom down considering he is by far the best looking of all the Clark boys. I think everyone is jealous. I admit it's been a while since I've seen some of you, but I saw Tom not too long ago and he looked great.
enough with the anonymous already, reveal yourself and own up to your ridiculous claims.
I think we have figured out the anonymous person. It must be Lindsey because of the last comment.
Anonymous, we must find things to debate about on this site. My good looks are not up for debate. Everbody already agrees on this topic, but thank you for your support. Larissa, for one who says Reesie I feel you are not qualified to give any grammatical or spelling tips.
The only reason I posted as anonymous before is because I did not know how to comment with my name it came up anonymous, but now I think it will be fun to remain anonymous especially since it seems to have touched some nerves. My comments were not based on any kind of Pro-Tom biased, in fact I rather regret making them now that he seems so arrogant. The fact remains that he is by a significant margin the best looking of the Clark brothers I have seen. This was not meant to be insulting, I think that they are all good looking, it's just that Tom is the best. I had a chance to look at the nicknames, I thought some were funny and others odd, for those who may not know what names apply to what person can they be labeled?
you are either Tom attempting to pump yourself up or delusional. I noticed you said the best looking of the brothers you have seen, well obviously you have not seen me. reveal yourself or we will simply ignore your comments.
Just as long as the infamous Grizzle Grinders don't start leaving comments...
I need to clear my name once and for all - I did NOT leave the anonymous comments about Tom. I would not declare things of that nature in such a public forum;-) That's all.
perhaps you would not declare them because you do not believe them---burned baldermort
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